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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sam Smith View Post
    Hello everyone! Over the past several weeks the question regarding RollBack Rx and how it works with SSD TRIM has seen resurgence...
    I'll take a different approach to this, but that doesn't mean than I'm not technical enough or that I don't understand the way Rollback RX works. I have years of experience with RBRX (mostly successful), but some things should be said nevertheless.

    The "problem" with RBRX and TRIM is very simple. It's exactly the same as the relation between RBRX and Defragmentation software : they are incompatible. You can't move data at a physical level on the disk (which both Defrag software and TRIM do) and expect another utility that does the same thing (aka RBRX) not to be affected or viceversa. It's quite logical and doesn't really need "tests" to be proven - it's like expecting two partition managers to work at the same time, for the same hardware and logical devices. The definition of impossible, since they work with the same data at the same time.

    Now if anyone looked at http://community.horizondatasys.com/...aggers-support, the HDS answer on both matters is that RBRX "supports" them both. And of course it ... "supports" them The same way (older) Windows "supported" GPUs by installing only a generic driver: the GPU will "work"...only that it won't do what it's supposed to do (e.g. run at the maximum resolution, have all the fancy stuff available in games, etc.) In other words, RBRX will "support" (read "tolerate") both Defrag and TRIM, just that their basic functionality (the whole point of them existing in the first place) is gone.

    If you carefully read HDS statements (aka read between the lines - something I'm VERY good at...) you'll notice that in the above link, Nick10, the moderator, states:
    "Fast forward to today... Defraggers are now slowly becoming obsolete due to the new generation of hard drives known as SSD. But just like traditional hard drives, there are a new set of utilities designed to determine its data efficiency. However the concept is the same and RollBack Rx behaves similarly."

    On the other hand, at http://support.horizondatasys.com/Kn...ng-rollback-rx, Guru Shiva from HDS states that "If you really need to defrag the drives with a third party tool: Uninstall RollBack Rx, defrag the drives and then reinstall RollBack Rx". Now why would that be required if RBRX fully "supported" Defrag (aka Defrag could be able to proper defragment the drive), huh? Classic marketing BS - and yes, I know how marketing works, I've studied that in college quite extensively.

    Now if you add the conclusion from my last paragraph to the conclusion of the paragraph before it (aka "the concept is the same and RollBack Rx behaves similarly") it's easy to see where this is going to: TRIM won't do what it's supposed to do while RBRX is running. Yes, it is "supported" (aka "tolerated") in the same way third party defragmentation is: killing its functionality. No test required, just properly read between the lines and be logical.

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    • #17
      The statement by Sam to Billy's post #15 is absolutely ridiculous... protecting snapshot data has nothing to do with it.

      As I've said many times, install Rollback and take a baseline. Then fill that disk up with known data. Take another snapshot. Then delete all that data. Take another snapshot.

      Now Rollback to your baseline. At this point your baseline has no reference to any of the data created. Delete all those snapshots. Rollback defrag all those snapshots. The baseline has no reference to any of that data and as a result of the previous 2-steps, it should be gone... nothing refers to it in any way at this point in time.

      Uninstall Rollback and look at the surface of your SSD... you will see every last piece of data created prior to your first snapshot, the whole disk will be covered with it.

      Now that's DATA that has no more reference to anything or any other snapshot... but the disk is full of it, NO TRIM function has ever been performed on that data, period.
      Last edited by Froggie; 08-11-2015, 05:03 AM.

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      • #18
        Sam Smith commented
        Today, 02:26 PM
        Hey billy!

        I can understand why it would still come across as unclear sometimes, because the answer when dealing with garbage cleanup functions with RollBack Rx installed is not so easily portrayed as black and white.

        Directly quoted from the developers post on TRIM:

        RollBack Rx is not affected by what’s going on at the disk level, but because of the nature of the TRIM commands, RollBack Rx certainly needs to be aware what the TRIM command will do to the sectors being “protected” in a RollBack Rx Snapshot. Without going into the details of how this is done, RollBack Rx will move the sectors that belong to RollBack Rx snapshots and then allow for the redirect of the TRIM command to where it needs to be executed. This is the proprietary way in which we work with TRIM. Thus, RollBack Rx supports SSD TRIM.
        In regards to Windows defrag, RollBack Rx will act in a similar manner as mentioned above. It will allow for the defrag to run on the current state you are in, but on the sector-level of the drive RollBack Rx will protect the data captured by all snapshots.

        In both cases the functions run on the current state you're loaded into, but the data being protected by all snapshots comes first.

        Cheers!
        Thank you Sam. However, if this is the case why would you have to uninstal Rx and reboot in order to have TRIM work? It seems to me that if Rx moved the protected data to a secure area that the now no longer secured area should be able to be TRIMed. The issue is even more confusing regarding deleted snapshots. If the snapshot is no longer existent then it would seem that TRIM should be free to work on this no longer protected area but again it seems that it does not do so.

        As far as defrag is concerned I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that Rx prevents defrag from running. Am I wrong in this understanding?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Yin Cognito View Post

          I'll take a different approach to this, but that doesn't mean than I'm not technical enough or that I don't understand the way Rollback RX works. I have years of experience with RBRX (mostly successful), but some things should be said nevertheless.

          The "problem" with RBRX and TRIM is very simple. It's exactly the same as the relation between RBRX and Defragmentation software : they are incompatible. You can't move data at a physical level on the disk (which both Defrag software and TRIM do) and expect another utility that does the same thing (aka RBRX) not to be affected or viceversa. It's quite logical and doesn't really need "tests" to be proven - it's like expecting two partition managers to work at the same time, for the same hardware and logical devices. The definition of impossible, since they work with the same data at the same time.

          Now if anyone looked at http://community.horizondatasys.com/...aggers-support, the HDS answer on both matters is that RBRX "supports" them both. And of course it ... "supports" them The same way (older) Windows "supported" GPUs by installing only a generic driver: the GPU will "work"...only that it won't do what it's supposed to do (e.g. run at the maximum resolution, have all the fancy stuff available in games, etc.) In other words, RBRX will "support" (read "tolerate") both Defrag and TRIM, just that their basic functionality (the whole point of them existing in the first place) is gone.

          If you carefully read HDS statements (aka read between the lines - something I'm VERY good at...) you'll notice that in the above link, Nick10, the moderator, states:
          "Fast forward to today... Defraggers are now slowly becoming obsolete due to the new generation of hard drives known as SSD. But just like traditional hard drives, there are a new set of utilities designed to determine its data efficiency. However the concept is the same and RollBack Rx behaves similarly."

          On the other hand, at http://support.horizondatasys.com/Kn...ng-rollback-rx, Guru Shiva from HDS states that "If you really need to defrag the drives with a third party tool: Uninstall RollBack Rx, defrag the drives and then reinstall RollBack Rx". Now why would that be required if RBRX fully "supported" Defrag (aka Defrag could be able to proper defragment the drive), huh? Classic marketing BS - and yes, I know how marketing works, I've studied that in college quite extensively.

          Now if you add the conclusion from my last paragraph to the conclusion of the paragraph before it (aka "the concept is the same and RollBack Rx behaves similarly") it's easy to see where this is going to: TRIM won't do what it's supposed to do while RBRX is running. Yes, it is "supported" (aka "tolerated") in the same way third party defragmentation is: killing its functionality. No test required, just properly read between the lines and be logical.
          Thank you for this very clear explanation. From a logical perspective it makes perfect sense.

          Sam, my problem is that what you are saying makes no logical sense. Perhaps the workings of Rx are too complicated to be explained clearly and logically but without such an explanation its difficult for me to accept that Rx supports TRIM (or defrag).
          Last edited by billy; 08-10-2015, 06:48 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            That's why I uninstall and install every month... so WINDOWS will trim the drive. Cause that's working



            Originally posted by billy View Post

            Thank you Sam. However, if this is the case why would you have to uninstal Rx and reboot in order to have TRIM work? It seems to me that if Rx moved the protected data to a secure area that the now no longer secured area should be able to be TRIMed. The issue is even more confusing regarding deleted snapshots. If the snapshot is no longer existent then it would seem that TRIM should be free to work on this no longer protected area but again it seems that it does not do so.

            As far as defrag is concerned I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that Rx prevents defrag from running. Am I wrong in this understanding?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mrdutchie View Post
              That's why I uninstall and install every month... so WINDOWS will trim the drive. Cause that's working

              That makes perfect sense and it would be nice if users were told by the publishers of Rx that in order to maintain their SSDs this needs to be done (same with defrag I would guess) on a regular basis..

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by billy View Post

                That makes perfect sense and it would be nice if users were told by the publishers of Rx that in order to maintain their SSDs this needs to be done (same with defrag I would guess) on a regular basis.
                Billy, it ain't gonna happen. The whole reason the document, "Rollback RX - The 'unOfishul' FAQ," was created was to warn users of all the ways Rollback could be compromised and as a result, their DATA (or hardware in the case of SSDs) could be seriously compromised. These issues have been brought up, ad infinitum, over the years without any action by Horizon DataSys as far as bringing them to the attention of their existing or potential users. The above referenced document tries to do that in a way that users may be forewarned.

                Horizon DataSys HAS NEVER BEEN WILLING do this on their own, even with gentle prodding from its user base.
                Last edited by Froggie; 08-22-2015, 06:44 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Thank you Froggie for your explanation, its an old topic helped me understand why my SSD drives on my PC's was getting slower and slower,
                  Even though i have 20 years experience with Computers "I am MCP in MS Servers but that was before SSD was invented, so how SSD drives and how the different settings trims and what ever work, or not work is still new to me, but i read a lot of stuff" When i bought my first SSD "Samsung SSD 840 EVO 250GB yea i know has a lot of problems i know" I enabled TRIM also used Rollback RX at the time but at the time i knew nothing about how they worked only that my system would "cold boot" in 1.4 sec without fast restart" so i was happy, but i was unhappy with TRIM did not feel i gained anything in fact i felt my system was getting slower, i now know why thanks to you Froggie and some of the other posters.
                  So you can teach an old dog "I am 43" new tricks. So thank you for the most informative info on the problems even though Horizon tries its best to hide "hide is the wrong word " as one poster put it Trim is supported but only its basic functions." As to Horizon's Respons "this is Sam's reply (Now, I believe we're going to come to an agreement to end the discussion here. My original write-up was written with the full input of our Senior Technical Support and the lead developer, and that is the technical team's final official response on the matter.) As Yin wrote you need to read between the line's" So as i read this Sam has been told this is our official stand on the matter. so i can't really blame Sam for some of his comments i mean its clear to me he knows Froggie and Yin are right but has to do as he is told or else!" I feel a little sad for Sam that he has to write what he knows not to be the whole truth, but i have seen this many times. but as to not using Rollback RX i will keep using it, has saved me a lot of times so i can live with the fact that it has some "bugs" So keep up the good work Horizon, i still have faith in you and your work, looking forward to getting Rollback RX 11. "The personal comments are purely what i believe i have no proof of any of it just my opinion"
                  Thank you

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